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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you like me to Photobucket some past FAC submissions? (I'd rather not link them, as some are visible only to staff members and the user submitting it is not a concern anyway).

I also notice that several pixelart sites make a clear distinction between "doll" and "base", with "doll" referring to completed pixelart characters and kits/generators (aka "dollmakers"), and "base" referring to the (for lack of a better word) naked bases upon which the artist builds and modifies.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stratadrake wrote:
Would you like me to Photobucket some past FAC submissions? (I'd rather not link them, as some are visible only to staff members and the user submitting it is not a concern anyway).


As examples of good art with dolls? Sure. I'd love to see that. Maybe I'm just prejudiced against it because I haven't really seen any good art with dolls.
Stratadrake wrote:

I also notice that several pixelart sites make a clear distinction between "doll" and "base", with "doll" referring to completed pixelart characters and kits/generators (aka "dollmakers"), and "base" referring to the (for lack of a better word) naked bases upon which the artist builds and modifies.


Yeah, I figured as much.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't guarantee "good", but I will offer some comparisons -- I hunted down the bases for one submission and hacked together a dissolve-animation in GIMP (seriously, there's got to be an easier command for this than what I was using)....

Exhibit #593932:

Aside from a general lack of contrast and pixel outlines, it doesn't look half bad.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though based on the work it would take to create those clothes, why don't you just require the extra step of making the base as well?


But nothing like that would ever be featured on the site, and while it's decent, it's no better than what I usually see.

I know nothing about pixel art however...
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Though based on the work it would take to create those clothes, why don't you just require the extra step of making the base as well?

Based on the work some artists will spend in coloring and shading, why not require the extra step of drawing the base sketch too?

Sorry to parody the argument, but I see few differences beyond that one is traditional and the other digital.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coloring lineart and colabs just seem a completely different world to me than pixel dolls made off bases. It's just my opionion. It has always seemed to me that it looks better and requires more effort to just color lineart than to draw on a doll. But, since I haven't done both, I can't fairly say that.


We should see what other people say about this.
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nsgreeny
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seeing as i have done this myself i may seem biased but if the person has permission i dont see a problem with them doing a recreation/recoloring
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But, since I haven't done both, I can't fairly say that.

By all means, try it sometime; it's not as easy as it looks.

At large dimensions, you have simply a ton (quite literally thousands) of pixels to work with; crisp, well-defined edges and even, "smooth" shading are not easy to accomplish regardless of whether you dither or not. (Dithering produces a smoother effect but, in order for it to be proper pixel art, must be done completely by hand - no patterns or filters allowed).

On the other hand, at small dimensions, you may not have as many pixels but this means you have to take extra care at getting every last pixel perfectly right, because if one or two pixels are 'off' it will affect the entire piece.

I spent four hours pixelling a piece that measured only 64x64 pixels (pic), and equally as long when working on my Mario Kart avvies (pic) which measured only 32x32 pixels, and were also limited to a fixed, 16-color palette.
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London
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God. Really well done pixel dolls take a long time. Some people simply can't draw people, but are good with clothing. I recognize that even people who don't/can't do their own bases can produce decent quality works, but since FAC does not currently allow them, and doing so could possibly (probably) create a lot of confusion for the FAC staff, I don't see the point of suddenly allowing them.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was, by no means saying that it was easy. I recognize the time it takes to do this sort of thing.
However, the same can be said about, say, flash animation. It takes FOREVER! but that said, I can spend forever on a piece, and have it be total trash. Though flash has potential to be really awesome, I just haven't seen that in dolls. (and I'm not talking about pixel art, there is some that totally rocks)

Now, are you going to limit the dolls you can make/use? I can't imagine you letting gaia avvies ever on the site. But what about all those artists who work in mods for those? Is that fair to them? (No, these questions are not rethorical, and this is kinda a different subject)


Anyway, normal pixel art is allowed right? So then, what is the difference with dolls that makes this an issue in the first place? Just the fact that the base isn't created by the person?
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London
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just the fact that the base isn't created by the person?

Yes.

Quote:
Though flash has potential to be really awesome, I just haven't seen that in dolls.

I'm going to again direct you to: www.otakuworld.com/kiss

Not the same thing, since it also requires coding, but the drawing part is essentially the same. One base. Lots of clothing. Usually all done in pixels. Some are really awesome. D. Sherman's in particular. Some examples:
http://otakuworld.com/index.html?/kiss/dolls/?/kiss/dolls/pages/mscloud2.htm
http://otakuworld.com/index.html?/kiss/dolls/?/kiss/dolls/pages/sue.htm
http://otakuworld.com/index.html?/kiss/dolls/?/kiss/dolls/pages/gal-0g3d.htm <-- And holy shit, if you have a pair of 3D glasses, this doll actually does look 3D.

Unforunately, you need a subscription to download stuff from this website. If anyone really wants to see them, you can PM me and I'll email them. You can find some of this guy's newer things on his deviantart page: http://dovsherman.deviantart.com/


The existence of KiSS dolls and dollmakers make complicate this whole base usage matter. Unless the approver is familiar with the works of the artists on that site (which is, afaik, the largest KiSS site out there), then it's pretty much impossible to tell what is a pixel doll made on someone else's base and what is just a screen shot of a kiss doll by another artist.
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Benk
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm...
I guess I'm okay with permitted lineart colorings, but not ms paint bases.
Eh, thats about as simple as I can make it and I see no reason to make it complicated.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the submissions I've seen recently, people using pixelart bases take more time to credit their source than people who do lineart recolors and collabs; the latter often provide only the finished piece and their word that it's a recolor or collab, no URL's for us to verify the original piece with.

Given that, I see even less reason to ban pixelart bases but allow lineart recolors, it's a double-standard.
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