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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: To Athiests. Reply with quote

I know there are a few of you on FAC. Out of curiosity and nothing more i'd like to ask you this: What are your thoughts on the Bible? Most of the people who I think of as intelligent on this site are Athiests while Christians often (for whatever reason) come out sounding insipid. Anyways. Ya.
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Brianhjh
 


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty accurate accounts on the world history told by people of semitic origins.

Not exactly accurate in terms of history-recording wise... for instance, ptolemy's account of greek wars that is considered to be one of the first historical works features no magical or holy numbers while bible does... It tells a collection of stories, bits of stories are changed to be more heartbreaking and to have a better plot.

For instance, story of Noah is true in a sense, about 5000 years ago, current day Iraq had the hugest flood ever predicted, this is estimated due to a huge layer of riverbed sediment in a place which is usually dry - around the level which indicates 3000BC. There was probably no arc of that size, and many people probably still lived on even though they were "chosen by God", however this tale lived on and was passed to nearby Israelites who probably transliterated to their own custom and culture, then comes Noah and the moral of "don't anger God".

If Christianity wasn't as wide spread as right now, I'd refer it to as kin to native American mythologies - sure, it's fun to read about mythological figures and the morals in it, but you know it probably didn't happen or it was exaggerated.

But because it isn't, and because it's so mainstream, I feel angry whenever people refer it to as something of guidline of life and what society should function. I find it strange and hypocritical that many other versions of mythologies such as Qu'ran, Palmandaejangyeong, and Maayan mythologies are ignored and considered heretic simply because they are out of their culture - they only consider the Christian Bible holy and true because they grew up with it. While people from other side of the world does the same thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with the above.
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian's answer was EXACTLY what I was looking for. I find that interesting, aswell. That there are so many other religions that have there own interpretation of the world's beginnings and tales of godly figures but because Christianity is so widespread and we are raised with it in North America we except it as the history of man. And once again, thank you Brian. Anybody else have a comment?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it was a story book devised for people to follow like you would find a children's book saying "Don't be naughty."

Best way to write a story is to write on past experiences and that's what happened.

Perhaps, later, they looked at the book again, noticed it had substance and others were reading and following it, so they introduced a man who was the main model and base for the book... Jesus.. and God.

WTS 1x Messiah!!! epiex.

iono.. speculation
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um...I really don't know what to say. Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to be honest i dont know what i believe about the bible, its all so confusing to me, but i have to agree with most of the points raised already.

i know, however, that i dont believe in the Christian view of heaven and hell, i remeber learning in History that the Priests used the concept of hell to frighten people into paying them (i think) and always coming to church on sunday...

...i hope i got that right...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that was pretty much the behaviour of the Catholic Church prior to the Renaissance, I believe. And it wasn't so much going to hell if you didn't, but that you were guaranteed a place in heaven if you "donated" to God's cause.

As for the Bible, I don't really have too much to say about it. I suppose I always just considered it as a spiritual guide for people who needed it. As for me, I once read through the Bible (albeit Mormon) as a bit of interest read; I'd always liked learning about other mythologies. Kind of like Aesop's fables: stories that are supposed to teach you something. :V
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uriel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think all of this stuff people believe, for example, the bible, was a clever work of fiction that grew out of proportin twisting history and people's will with it. Eventually people grew to believe everything in the bible as if it were true. People made this into a business, called church. Does anyone actually believe everything in the bible and follow it as closely as they can? No. It was clearly writen for other times. Now it is not but a twisted tale of complete obedience and submission. Following orders from a book that was written so long ago no one should care about it by now. About history, I personally don't believe ANY history other than what happened during my lifetime. People make up history. For example (sorry if this offends anyone), the 9/11 terrorist attacks, or may I say the 9/11 preplaned psychological attacks by the government or maybe an even another organization that operates within this countries borders. I know I'm getting of topic, but I'm just saying that history and religion are two things we will never know for sure.
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, basically, you don't believe anything you haven't seen with your own eyes...? I've met a few people who feel that way. My favourite clich counter to that logic? You can't see the wind. How do you know it's really there?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry. double post.
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Brianhjh
 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, as opposed to the wind, presence of God can't be tested in any way, shape or form unless someone cries out "that's the work of GOD! Christianity 4eva!".

Many things that can't be seen can be felt, smelled, or be worked out in a predictable result through an experiment, such as the fact that the earth is round, presence of gravity, microorganism too small for eyes to see, etc. etc.

Of course, people TRIED to test the presence of God and whatnot, the best example I can think of is the doomsday religions proclaiming that the world is gonna end, and the followers gather in a field meditating for hours for the promised specific time. It's true that the example I just gave isn't christianity, but how will you say which one is more true than others? Ya can't, Many points of the bible has been overemphasized by many people just to satisfy their own political vendetta, nothing is credible any more.

Do you know that regulations about food consumption is described in much more detail than laws regarding homosexuality? the latter which never gets mentioned by jesus himself, but by one of his apprentice (?) in few sentences? Of course, we all know that good 99 percent of people in the world do not abide by the holy consumption law which is ludicrous and virtually impossible to follow in all areas but the middle east (figures, eh?) but it's always the gay card that gets played in the face of politics and religion, I find that funny. No, not funny, hilarious, I'm crying of laughter.

It's not the book or the literature that you can stick the blame to, it's always the people who think it's more than what it is, a scrumptious work by semitic elders telling outdated, but still useful tales of morality - usually good for those anklebiters.
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My post was really replying to how he is very critical of what he hears from the media and such. The point I was trying to get a cross was this: you have to believe something. Most of the things we learn in life is through word of mouth. Such as what we learn at school. We put faith in our teachers that what they are teaching is true. Most of the time, this is the case. But we think back to things like The Hitler Youth. The sole purpose of their educational structure was to create a future generation that was blindly loyal to Hitler and the Nazis.

In short, what we hear shapes the world around us, true or false.

In reply to your post: It really makes you think, than. Millions no BILLIONS of people are following an entity which can't actually be proven exists. Makes you wonder...

You look around and the world is well created. It is striking to assume it all happened by chance. But at the same time, we can't prove it wasn't.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You look around and the world is well created. It is striking to assume it all happened by chance. But at the same time, we can't prove it wasn't.




Oh gawd, I hate this argument.

Will and lots of people are guilty of this, and I forget what the specific name was, but it's one of those circular-proof thing, it goes like this:

1. Suggest something is impossible without something else.
2. That something else is only possible when situation 1 is true.
3. ? (insert something dogmatic here)
4. PROFIT!

[possibly unrelated]no humans can prove the statement "the world is well constructed", sure, the humans can breathe and survive and all that, the animals go in a cycle of eating and being eaten, give off offspring and lives keep on going, yadda yadda yadda. But, no humans know of any other world or otherwise, they have nothing to compare it by. So the point moot, It'd be nice if humans could fly, but that doesn't happen. It'd be nice if all animals ate plants that was plentiful and neverending on this planet, but that's obviously not the case. "The world is beautiful, look at the trees and the wonderful nature" is equally as valid as "The world is ugly, look at the wars, starving children, and futility of human life".

If you were talking about the sheer fact there is an intelligent life form such as human walking on earth in the first place, and that's how the world is "well constructed", you can't prove how existance of human is beneficial to the world. You can't judge on how something is good or bad unless there is something to compare it by. In everyday life, you can compare situation of different countries, cars, but not the world, cause the definition itself implies that there is only one of it.
[/possibly unrelated]

Now, going back to the chart... Let's assume that having a well-constructed world involves intelligent life form like us living in harmony with the nature - no emminent threat to our survival, us being smart enough to creat tools to easen our life. If the world wasn't so "well-constructed", then there would be no humans in the first place to wonder how "well constructed the world is". In short, if there were no humans, no one would ever consider that the world is well constructed, because as far as we know, the only animal that can consider this are humans.

So you're implying (well, at least Will was) that since the humans have the power to think about the goodness in life around them, and how the chemistry balances itself out to support a life form, that is thus why the world is well-constructed.

Circular proof!

Now, if the world was not so well constructed, and there were no life forms in the first place. And no one to ask that question. So in all, you're entrusting the proof of some superior being on your ability to think about your well-being. That's not how religion should work. Proof of superior being shouldn't be "I have the ability to consider the world around me and believe that there should be something to answer my question of how they got there". no...

What science does is that it tries to answer questions without assuming through false logic like the circular proof. I personally think that big bang theory is crap. I almost never mention it in debates like this because battling a preconceived notion of how the world might be created with the same, but with sciency details is just as bad. I believe that the beginning can never be found out because no one was there to see it. Science can give us logical assumptions, but never the proof. And I'm perfectly fine with that because science knows its limits and it does not lie about it.

Religion on the other hand, does.


I'm sorry that my post is resembling DF's... but seriously, try to read through, there are no pesky insults in here. I'm not too sure why that single argument takes so many paragraphs to explain why it's faulty... perhaps it is a good argument.
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a weird debate, to say the least. I think i've heard Will go off on it once before and all it really seems to do is give you a headache.

If i'm realizing anything from your post it's that we really can't say whether the Earth is good or not. We have nothing to compare it to. If we could fly, would this really be a good thing in the long run? We'll never be able to find out things like that.

I think it really comes down to the fact that humans have made so many bad decisions in history because we want to win wars, we want to build things, we want more land. It makes you think that the flaw is in humans and not so-much the Earth, itself.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Brianhjh. You can't compare the world to another because we don't know another. You need a control and a variable. You can't compare something to something there is not. And to anti_sk8r, the wind I can feel, therefore I can believe it is there unless human minds don't percive truth. You can't tell anything, as far as we know the things we know we either make up or we prove with theories that can't be proven.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they recently found the Gospel of Judas, right?

It says how Jesus told Judas that he would betray him and that that was his purpose in life. He was the most important thing out of it all because he was the one who would set up the whole religion, that he'd die for the sins and stuff. He'd begin it all. And also that at the time, he'd be a hated man. But in the future, he'd be exalted.

Which is pretty much true...

Also, it's what Andrew Lloyd Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar, the musical, has said all along. Now they know it to be true...
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anti_sk8r
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And to anti_sk8r, the wind I can feel, therefore I can believe it is there unless human minds don't percive truth. You can't tell anything, as far as we know the things we know we either make up or we prove with theories that can't be proven.

Yeah, but you have got to believe in some things that you hear. Sure, as far as we know they may be false but if we didn't believe them than the world around us would be an empty place. It's like watching a report about the rainforest on TV and than saying that it's not really there, just because you've never seen it with your own eyes.

About Judas: If Jesus knew that he was going to die for man's sins on Earth anyway, wouldn't he have eventually just gave himself up to the authorities? Really makes you wonder.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They wouldn't have believed him and he'd be executed as a crazy man or some shit instead of having this grand betrayal and such.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of like the version of the story where Jesus is a huge attention whore and egomaniac, and Judas turns him in because even though he's still his best friend and loves him dearly, he's worried by his behaviour and doesn't want to see his ego cause the undoing of the Jewish people.

Flawed characters are more fun. It's like watching a band fall apart because of all the in-fighting between the singer and the lead guitarist.
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