Fact Vs Opinion 101

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject:

So you like a band and want to express your love of them without sounding like a douche bag...great! Here's a handy dandy guide to "fact vs opinion" when sharing your admiration.

[b]FACT[/b]

Fact is something that is universally true about the band. Jani Lane has great range. That is a fact. It is something that is true about them no matter whether you like the music or not. Even if you hate him, you cannot deny that Jani Lane has great range.

[b]OPINION[/b]

Opinion is your preferences. "Jani Lane sucks" is an opinion. "I don't like Jani Lane's singing" is also an opinion. You may not like it, but that does not mean he isn't talented. See how that works? It also applies to "____ are great!" What makes them great? With no factual reasons, it is still an opinion that you [i]think[/i] they are great.

[b]FACT vs OPINION[/b]

So how do you know when what you're saying is a fact or an opinion and how do you use each? Depends on the situation. Consider what kind of topic you're replying to before you begin to avoid coming off as ignorant or as someone with no basis for their beliefs. For example, if someone starts a thread about how much Jani Lane sucks, how might you go about responding?

"Jani Lane sucks!"
possible response: "No he doesn't, I love him."
~ Since the initial statement was merely an opinion (that they do not like Jani), you can simply reply with your own opinion. This does, however, make you no better than them.

"Jani Lane sucks!"
possible response: "no he doesn't, he has a large range, strong vocals, and an energetic performance"
~ If you're countering someone's opinion, it's always best to give facts to back up your statement. "He does!" "no he doesn't!" is never a good argument and is silly. Besides, if you truly feel what the person says isn't true, you should be able to back it up. If you can't, better reassess your ideas.

[b]Responding to FACT[/b]

So now you know how to reply to those spamfully wonderful comments of "____ sucks!" or "____ is awesome!", but what if someone throws some facts out there?

Most importantly: [i]Never[/i] respond with purely opinion.

example:

"C.C. Deville is a bad guitarist. He misses notes, is sloppy, out of tune, and sometimes not even plugged in."
"No way, he's really good!"

Clearly this gives no argument to the facts presented in the first statement. All it has established is that the second person likes him, which has nothing to do with the topic. [b]When replying to someone who has presented facts, always provide facts of your own if you wish to counter their argument.[/b]

Example:

"C.C. Deville is a bad guitarist. He misses notes, is sloppy, out of tune, and sometimes not even plugged in."
"That's not true. He is a little sloppy, but he comes up with great melodies and hooks, plus has an interesting stage performance. His solo in Life Goes On is one of the most appropriate and skillfull power ballad solos of the decade."

This gives the second person far more credibility than simply saying "uh uh!!!!".

[b]Summary[/b]

You can reply to opinion with either opinion and/or fact.
Do not reply to facts with opinion. It doesn't mean anything and does not "counter" the first person no matter how much you think it does. Smile

(Sorry to Jani and C.C. for making them my example bitches... Razz

)
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject:

You covered it all, Fallen.

By the way, I wouldn't say something along these lines any time soon:

Example:

Flea> I don't like them because they learned about 3 power chords and were made famous.
Other>DON'T EVER JUDGE BY THEIR LOOKS OR MUSIC

Only one person has done this so far. I'm sorry about using you as an example, but you're mature enough to react logically, I'm sure. You've only done it once. I have faith.

Fallen may have covered this, but I need to specify on this. I feel that many LP or B-182 or Simple Plan fans may be using this excuse in the future.
_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject:

Yeah that too. But caps lock in general is just a no-no.

I got tired of typing "just because you like them doesn't make them good" 50 billion times, so let's read this and understand it. Bitches.

_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

Darkferret · Member Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 77

"I hope kids realize that music is music, and that music is not a scene, not a style. Music is a beautiful f**king thing to listen to. It is not a thing to preach to others about, it's not a f**king cause. It is what it is - and that's a beautiful artform." -Synyster Gates, Avenged Sevenfold

It is that kind of attitude that I feel should be respected.

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject:

I respect it, but I ain't gonna follow it. The "everything is music, it's all good" attitude is, in my opinion, boring as hell. If I like music, I want to discuss it not sit around verbally masturbating with the "oh, music is so beautiful, it's wonderful, everything is great because it's music, and music is great..." Screw that. Debating music is fun, plain and simple. Neither Flea nor myself take it so insanely serious that we devote every waking moment to classifying something as "music" or "not music", those people [i]are[/i] missing the point.

However, if I want to have an intelligent discussion about what makes a certain band talented or not talented, nutswingers jumping in with "I luv them, they r teh awesome!" piss me off.

Really, how much can you talk about following that quote? :huh: "I like Motley Crue" "I like Linkin Park" "I like Black Sabbath" "Cool, we all like music."

The end. Wow, I 've just covered every forum thread we can ever have. We're all done here, guys, go find something else to be passionate about.

You know, that frame of mind is just a different way of saying "everything is art". And that may be true, but if some guy gets 5 million dollars for a blank canvas...it may be art, but I've got a few things to say about that. Just because some people like it and want to believe it's art doesn't mean I have to treat it all nice and say "oh, ok, I guess it is art and worth the fortune that guy got for doing absolutely nothing".

No thanks.
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

chaosmega · Very bored Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 150

[quote="ragingflea002 (Flea)"]

Flea> I don't like them because they learned about 3 power chords and were made famous.
Other>DON'T EVER JUDGE BY THEIR LOOKS OR MUSIC

[/quote]
was that me, perchance? WTF?

Alot of times, when a person likes a band that strongly :cough:Jissy:cough:
they can't express in logical terms why they do o dont like them. The emotions are
too strong and that turns itself into anger, a temporary form of insanity. Sometimes, people have very logical, fact based reasons for their liking of a certain band. I know it's happened to me. You just forget why you are doing what you are and just start ranting and raving. See?

BTW: this isn't a rant!... I don't think... AAHH! I'm lecturing like my mom!

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject:

Hey, I know as well as anyone about loving a band. I'd do just about anything for Guns N' Roses... And they reduce me to a blithering fangirl at times when conversing with other big fans. But I still keep all caps lock, 'net slang, and "omfg they are the awesome" out of it.

Part of it probably comes with age. I mean, ten years ago I couldn't explain why Axl was a good frontman or why his writing was good. That comes with lots of reading, studying, and following discussions by the older and wiser who know what the hell they're talking about. But still, doesn't excuse the use of "I love them!" as an argument for why they're good.

I mean, you may not be able to express why specifically you like them, in a lot of cases I can't describe it either. At least not all of it. But you should be able to explain why they're a talented band. If you can't, well, just don't try. Razz

If the topic is about why you do or don't like something, fine, but if the topic is why a band is talented or not...well those are two completely different things.

On a sidenote, I can't help reading "Jissy" as "Jizzy"...Jizzy Pearl...
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:46 am Post subject:

Friend of mine has tickets to a Guns N' Roses publicity concert.

2 tickets, front row. Damn the fucker to Hell. Grr!

Chaos, it wasn't you. Read the first page of that thread. You'll see.

That person is mature, though. She just got a little mad, I suppose.
_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

chaosmega · Very bored Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 150

Lol. I know. I have "friends" that get so passonate over music that will start fights about it for no reason. It's irritating. Most times they can't even tell you why they like a band- not even that they like them cause they are good. They make up illegitemite ans STUPID reasons for their liking of a band. Then, when you ask them, they get all offended and walk off. (anger manegment!)

I do think it does take alot of time and experiance before you can really assess (sp?), but most times it comes with age, so I guess it's not exactly their fault that they don't knoow what they are saying. (sure, that made TONS of sense).

Oh, and they don't sell RATM in ANY stores where I live. That blows.

ragingflea002 · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:20 am Post subject:

If you buy Audioslave, it's the same thing. Just with another vocalist.

But less Rage.
_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

Lexar · Forum Stalker Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 1129

[quote]Fact is something that is universally true about the band. Jani Lane has great range. That is a fact. It is something that is true about them no matter whether you like the music or not. Even if you hate him, you cannot deny that Jani Lane has great range. [/quote]

I'm not trying to flame or disagree with the idea behind the topic, but technically it's not a fact. You can't measure it, it's not objective. It's subjective. Someone else, let's say pavarotti might not agree on this for example. A fact is something like: the temperature is 20 degrees celcius or this person weighs 80 kilos.

As much as it is accepted and agreable, someones musical talent is not objective, and not a fact.

Do continue.

fallenangel · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject:

Yes you are trying to argue, and for once I do agree with you, but do you really think the people who argue someone's skill with "I like them!!!!" would understand the difference between a descriptive and non-descriptive opinion? I think not. I broke it down to make it easy to understand the difference.

And Jani [i]does[/i] have great range. You can measure his range. Now, is "great" an opinion, sure, but could be interchanged with his specific range if I knew it.

Go find something else to nitpick.
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

BAMFManiac · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject:

heh i usually have specific reasons for liking a band, but sometimes i can't quite explain it. i'll be like "i love them... i don't know why, i just do. something about them just makes me happy/impresses me". but i know what you guys mean and thank you very much for the detailed suggestions, fallen! if i ever find myself defending an opinion with "he rocks!" (which i hope i don't do), i'll think back on this.

and that "all music is beautiful. music is music" thing kinda bothers me too. i mean, i understand that point of view i guess, but even if it's all just music, it's still all very different and each style appeals to different people. you can like all music because it's all "beautiful" but really what i think makes music interesting is the great diversity of it, not the universality. (does that make sense? i know what i mean but i don't think i'm getting my point across... meh this probably just sounded like stupid dribble...)
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fallenangel · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject:

Oh yeah, I rarely bother giving examples for why I like a group. "I like them 'cause his singing is unique and he has interesting phrasing" isn't really needed. No one really has to have a reason for why they like a group. But if they want to defend what they like as being a skilled band, well..."I just like them" doesn't cut it. Razz

My only point. Y'all can bicker about my word choice all you want, but you know the point and that's what matters.
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

chaosmega · Very bored Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 150

I do buy Audioslave. And I love their music. Please don't ask why (I smell debate! not) Razz

I think alot to do with the argument of "This band is good because..." is just whether or not the music appeals to the individual, not the quality of their music/lyrics. But that just makes it all the more difficult to explain WHY you like that specific band, which I hate. There is NO possible way to argue whether or not a band is good or not. It will always be an opinion, and not a fact, unless you like them because, say, they use specific chords and brand of guitar or something. It will ALWAYS be an opiniated matter.

fallenangel · Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject:

*is now banging head against the wall*

Why, why do I bother? Pretty soon I'm just giving up on FAC music related discussions and sticking 100% to Sludge. I try to explain the difference to people, and they just don't fuckin' get it.

Look, will it always be an opinion? Yeah, it will, but ya know what? If you put C.C. Deville next to Richie Sambora...that's no fuckin' contest! Richie is ten times more talented than C.C.. He just is. His skills are better. He's more in control, he misses fewer notes, he's plugged in, his rythm is less spastic.... Get it?! I like C.C.'s playing better, but that doesn't make him a better guitarist.

I'm not saying any of this relates to a discussion about why you like someone! It doesn't. Like whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. If you want to like Skid Row because Sebastian Bach has a big dick, all the power to ya! BUT, if the discussion is about skills...stop bringing what you like into it. We. Don't. Care.

I don't get where I'm not being clear. No matter how many times I say it, people still keep insisting that liking something makes it good (meaning skilled). It doesn't. Period. Ugh. Stop bringing it up. If you can't deal with a discussion about skills and NOT what you like, just stay out of it. . . . .

_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

Papercut_Dragon · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject:

I get it: you can like a band that sucks major ass, but no one will give you grief-and Fallen won't have to kill you-if you can accept the fact that they suck and you liking them doesn't make them great, or you not liking them makes them horrible. Or you use facts (ex: they have no solos in their songs. Whether you like no solos or not is your opinion and not really relevant, unless the topic of the discussion is "Do you like songs with solos?").

You should pin this thread up there with forum rules. Smile

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fallenangel · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject:

*gasp* You get it! *humps sunny's leg*

I was about to have a nervous breakdown. 'Cause I'm very used to everyone understanding this concept and was ready to go insane...

Pinned. Smile

_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

Papercut_Dragon · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject:

Lol

Well this [i]is[/i] FAC... it has a history of having people with little to no common sense. . . . .

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[url=http://www.fanart-central.net/pic-607038.html]No Shaking Throne[/url]

ragingflea002 · Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject:

[quote="chaosmega (chaos)"] I do buy Audioslave. And I love their music. Please don't ask why (I smell debate! not) Razz

[/quote]
There's nothing wrong with Audioslave. That's why they're one of the most popular new bands today. :huh:

And it's thourogh. I understand it. One person may prefer bands with depressing lyrics with terrible guitar, while another may like a band with fairly lighthearted lyrics and excellent guitar. The one who likes the one with depressing lyrics may debate how that band "IS THE BEST IN THE WOOOOOOORLD!!!!". The one who likes the band with the excellent guitar and fairly lighthearted lyrics may say "My band is okay, but the blah blah needs work....."

Hell, the depreesing lyrics fan could say that and still be in the clear.

Confusing? Uneasy

_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."