The Inevitable 'decline'.

[LunaticCrow]

Videogames, from humble beginnings to an explosion in popularity. I've been playing games since 2002, sure, I got a late start, but this didnt stop me from going back and playing older games. By 'savouring' their qualities, and faults, I've realised that, while sometimes older games were flawed, they had their good points.

But, the new 'innovations' being incorperated into sequels of generally 'entertaining' and 'freakin' sweet' games, well, read on if you want to know where I'm coming from.

(Note: I'm only using one game for an example, but I think it gets the point across)

Sonic the Hedgehog - Started from a humble sidescrolling platformer, it eventually went 3D with new improvements in technology, it's popularity suddenly bursting with the release of the free roaming platformer on the Dreamcast, many fans of this series were happy that it was getting the attention that it deserved from so many 'non-gamers', it was brought to the normal person, but, it should have stopped there, I think.

With the upcoming release of 'Shadow the Hedgehog', they incorperate 'shooter' elements into a game with a furry animal, in hopes of appealing to a more 'mature', and generally 'cooler' audience.

But, these people arent the people who truly apreciate games. It's just a way to kill a few hours for them.

The people you see in the commercials for the PSP? They dont represent the culture of gamers, they represent the gaming industry now. Profit mongering, manipulative shells of human beings, who once cared about the gamer culture, now, turning to the small, greedy child and their parents who are too tired from their miserable lives to care, to buy their games, just to make another 20 bucks.

I suppose the only thing we, the gamers can do, is hope for things to go back to the way they were.

More simpler, yet deeper times.
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[Stratadrake]

In other words, [i]Vive la Revolution[/i], eh? ;)

[quote]The people you see in the commercials for the PSP? They dont represent the culture of gamers, they represent the gaming industry now.[/quote]
You hit the nail square on the head there. I'd love to read that article in the November PSM magazine called "[b]PSP: WTF?[/b] - What went wrong and when will it get better" .



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[VR_Jay]

If you think things will go back to the way they were, you have another thing coming. Things will never "go back" to the way they were. If they had, we would still be playing 2-D side-scrollers. Or the industry would have bottomed out and video games would be a novelty, depending on how you are looking at it.

Here's the thing, the games industry, like every industry, is an evolving market. Though the PSP commercials are a little far fetched, I feel Soney has hit the nail on the head as to what marketing audience they have targeted. They want this piece of hardware to be for everyone, not just the ubergamer. That's why they are making it to fit everyone's needs. Yes, it may alienate the more hard-core audience, but Soney will turn more of a profit.

The fact of the matter is, if you want to make a highly successful game, you may have to alienate the hard cores. Let's look at Nintendo vs Microsoft. Nintendo is the pioneer of the gaming industry. They are the first to do ANYTHING. D-pad? Nintendo's idea. Analog sticks? Nintendo did it first. Rumble pack? That would be Nintendo. And how about the games themselves? 3-D platformers, Action-Adventure games, motion based play, voice recognition and activation, not to mention taking the FPS form PC and introducing it to consoles. Nintendo does everything first. And because of this, they can do everything cheaper. You think Nintendo is dwindling? Hah, not by a long shot.

Microsoft, on the other hand, doesn't make it; it makes it BETTER. Memory card? HARDRIVE. Dual analog with shoulder pads? More ergonomic design, and lets replace those shoulder pads with triggers. You have good graphics? We have BETTER ones. Store music and MP3's. Play movies. Who needs lots of minor game hits when you have several MAJOR ones? Microsoft succeeds by taking what is already there and then adding a hemi.

So anyways, Nintendo creates, a fan base forms, other companies jump on it as well. Lets take the FPS. Bigger and better versions are created all the time. Many see the FPS as peaking with Halo. It is the king of its genre. The hard cores who were there since the begging have now been pushed aside as the popularity of said genre reaches critical mass. Everyone plays it, so now standards are expected. As the genre is milked dry, the fan base will dwindle until only the hardcrores remain once again. By this time, a new hot genre will have emerged. Have you seen the new controller for Nintendo? You are looking at the next generation, my friends. And what may seem as novelty now will be the norm in ten years time.

So, the fact is that the evolution of this market means it is no longer YOUR market. It is everybodys market. Much like computers, everyone has one, everyone uses one, so the market must now cater to everyone, not just the select few.

The gaming industry is not declining. It is still building up a full head of steam.
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[color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]

[zakuman]

Ack...I hate to post an opposing view to VR Jay, cause he seems to be a very knowledgable fellow. But Nintendo... the trail blazer? Not Exactly, Atari was the first to make a home console. It's just Nintendos first console was soo damn sweet. And after that sweet (original) Nintendo. Well I think nintendo has been behind ever since. Competition has been leaving Nintendo in the dust for the past 3 generations. The genesis was out far before the snes. The Sega CD...introduced.. the disk drive to the console platform. Nintendo's 64 was two years late, and came with the out-dated cartridge. I know Sega was never very successful, but i feel they had a lot more balls than nintendo. Sega had the first online console. Don't get me wrong I still like nintendo, but I think they're going to have to bow out of this next fight. I no longer care about their franchise characters. I don't need 6 new Mario games.

Bah... anyway, this post is about how games have evolved for the worse. Guess what folks... live with it. We've got 3D games now!! Oh my! But I miss my 2D ones. I've heard this lame arguement far too much. If you can get with the new games, then don't buy them. Stick with the classics and quite gripeing about it.

And is it a really a decline? There's plenty of innovative wonderful things happening with games... you just might not notice it, cause you're not looking. Popularity does scew things a bit, cause the crap sometimes comes to the top (much like an other industry).

[VR_Jay]

Yes, other companies have come out with groundbreaking ideas, but Nintendo has had MORE. And Atari was not the first to have a home console; the Odyssey takes that prize, build by Magnavox, of all companies.

Yes, genesis is good, and it was out first, but SNES has held it's ground longer, and would be considered to be the more popular of the two (one of my roommates, who loves Genesis, admitted this).And yes, Nintendo does release about six Mario games a year, but every one of those games is different.

Look, this all goes back to what I said earlier about genre cycles. Nintendo will very often start a trend, like the 3-d platformer, for instance. Since they are the one's who "birth" it. They can make it for less. By the time other companies have caught on to it, it will cost 3 times as much to produce and be 3 times more likely to flop, because by now the standards for said genre have been raised. And by that time Nintendo has made a tidy little profit and will back down again into the recesses of their labs to concoct something new. Just look at it this way: almost every peripheral you use today was originally started by Nintendo.

Anyways, as ben said, this is a mute point. The industry is far from decline, and the ratio of good to crap is nothing compared to the near collapse of video games in the 80's, due to the phenomenal amount of swill being pushed onto the market.

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[color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]

[Stratadrake]

[b]QUOTE[/b] (zakuman)
Nintendo's 64 was two years late, and came with the out-dated cartridge.[/quote] I disagree about the "outdated" part. Developers went for CD-ROM format because it had more raw storage capacity [i]and was cheaper to produce[/i]. On the other hand, you never had to worry about loading screens on the N64, nor really about running out of space on your memory cards to store savegame data. And knowing how manufacturing has progressed since then, considering you can pack +GB of data into less physical space than an N64 cart... storage space isn't an issue anymore. [b]QUOTE[/b] (zakuman) There's plenty of innovative wonderful things happening with games...[/quote] And once again, the largest mainstream innovation is coming from Nintendo, with their new "remote controller" design. There have already been complaints about how the Revolution won't support HDTV formats, and won't play DVD's out-of-the-box. Allow me one axe to grind about the DVD compatibility. Is that [i]really[/i] a requirement for a gaming console? True, it was a selling point for the XBox and PS2, [b]when DVD players were fewer and more expensive[/b] (in some cases, buying the PS2 just to play DVD's was still a cheaper option). But now, DVD has overtaken VHS as the primary rental movie media, and DVD players are found everywhere for less than $100, DVD compatibility isn't a selling point of the hardware anymore. As for tech specs, zakuman you're wrong: The N64 had a more powerful GPU than the Playstation. It also supported 3D texture filtering (another Nintendo first for a console), rather than pixelated textures like the Saturn and PSX before it. Overall: The industry is reaching the point where tech specs alone are not enough. Sure, they give you bragging rights over the other consoles, but that's not what ultimately wins the battle, is it? _________________ Strata here: [url=http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/242293]Nanowrimo[/url] - [url=www.fanart-central.net/user-Stratadrake.php]FAC[/url] - [url=http://stratadrake.deviantart.com]dA[/url] - [url=www.furaffinity.net/user/Stratadrake/]FA[/url] [size=9]Disclaimer: Posts may contain URLs. Click [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife]at your own risk.[/url][/size]
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zakuman Still very bored Joined: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 258	Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject: Gah.... seriously, I'll give Nintendo a few brownie points here and there. But I think you guys are building Nintendo up to be better than it is. Eventhough the 64 had a better tech spec, I still find myself more impressed with my saturn than I was with my 64. I never said the 64's GPU was less powerful than the psx or the saturn though. So I don't see how I was wrong there. Anyway Nintendo was dragging it's feet with the handhelds too. The lynx, the game gear, and the nomad all far surpassed nintendo's original game boy. And nintendo is left yet again in the dust by the overly expensive psp. (I got the DS instead... cause it was the more reasonable buy). Anyway, I'm just saying Nintendo does not have what it takes to stick with the industry. Oh and one thing VR Jay forgot to mention about the xbox is it's excellent online service, and set-up. If anybody says microsoft only has good graphics and Halo... they're wrong. Xboxlive is probly one of the best things to come out of the fourth gen consoles. Anyway this could go on for a long time. I don't hate nintendo... I just think you guys are giving it more credit than it deserves... cause if anything has been gradually slipping I think it's nintendo. I don't see the Revolution doing much. Nintendo is going to release it last, and you'll have to pay a some hefty bills to download the classic games. But hey, I can play those classics on my hacked xbox.
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Mountain_Dewroo Forum Stalker Joined: 05 Jul 2004 Posts: 1274	Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Zaku, (I know it's a bit off topic,) Why don't you hang out in the other parts of the forum? :) Anyway.... Zaku is right. Xbox like is good, But in my View, I think the PC is better.
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Stratadrake Elder Than Dirt Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 13721 Location: Moo	Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: [quote]Anyway, I'm just saying Nintendo does not have what it takes to stick with the industry.[/quote] I disagree. The N64 and GC have such small libraries compared to the PSX/PS2 primarily because it's the [b]third parties[/b] who kept choosing the PSX/PS2 over it. You know Nintendo has first party support like no other.... You might even say the industry does not have what Nintendo wants to keep up with, the two do not walk step in step with each other. Do they even need to? _________________ Strata here: [url=http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/242293]Nanowrimo[/url] - [url=www.fanart-central.net/user-Stratadrake.php]FAC[/url] - [url=http://stratadrake.deviantart.com]dA[/url] - [url=www.furaffinity.net/user/Stratadrake/]FA[/url] [size=9]Disclaimer: Posts may contain URLs. Click [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife]at your own risk.[/url][/size]
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VR_Jay Very Oldbie Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 2725	Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: In my opinion, there is no competition between Nintendo and Soney or Microsoft, because Nintendo is on a whole nother relm of existance here. What they do is so drastically different from everyone else. Conforming to the norm is just not in their vocabulary. And Zakuman, as for the whole "Game Gear being better that Gamboy" thing, I have just one question for you: Which one is still around? _________________ [img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/Anti_Commecial_Banners_by_Nevar530.jpg[/img] [img]http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/th_myvsweetkiss1xc.gif[/img] [color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]
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Stratadrake Elder Than Dirt Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 13721 Location: Moo	Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: The Game Gear died because of a few factors: - Poor third-party support (compared to the existing Game Boy) - No "killer app" (such as Tetris) - Very short battery life (again, in comparison to the Game Boy) - Various quality issues Wikipedia article "The [Game Gear] required [b]six AA batteries[/b], and the backlit screen consumed these in [b]three to five hours[/b]." _________________ Strata here: [url=http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/242293]Nanowrimo[/url] - [url=www.fanart-central.net/user-Stratadrake.php]FAC[/url] - [url=http://stratadrake.deviantart.com]dA[/url] - [url=www.furaffinity.net/user/Stratadrake/]FA[/url] [size=9]Disclaimer: Posts may contain URLs. Click [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife]at your own risk.[/url][/size]
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fallenangel Site Admin Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 9216 Location: Los Angeles	Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:27 am    Post subject: I have a game gear on the top shelf of a closet somewhere at home. :P I only got it so I could play it in the dark on road trips 'cause of the lit screen. Games sucked. _________________ "I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall
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VR_Jay Very Oldbie Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 2725	Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: [quote="Stratadrake (Strata)"] Wikipedia article "The [Game Gear] required [b]six AA batteries[/b], and the backlit screen consumed these in [b]three to five hours[/b]." [/quote] Hell, I could tell you that without looking it up. Like fallen, I only had it for when it got too dark to play my Gamboy. _________________ [img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/Anti_Commecial_Banners_by_Nevar530.jpg[/img] [img]http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/th_myvsweetkiss1xc.gif[/img] [color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]
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fallenangel Site Admin Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 9216 Location: Los Angeles	Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: The rechargeable battery packs fixed the power issue, and they had a car adapter. Just more crap to buy, though. _________________ "I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall
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John Member Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 85	Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: People who show their PSP in public should get mugged...
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VR_Jay Very Oldbie Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 2725	Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: [quote="fallenangel (fallen)"] The rechargeable battery packs fixed the power issue, and they had a car adapter. Just more crap to buy, though. [/quote] Which I didn't. I'm not sure if I saved money or not. ^_^ _________________ [img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/Anti_Commecial_Banners_by_Nevar530.jpg[/img] [img]http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/VR_Jay/th_myvsweetkiss1xc.gif[/img] [color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]
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fallenangel Site Admin Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 9216 Location: Los Angeles	Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Depends on how often you played it. I was too young to remember how much my folks paid for 'em. Probably would have been cheaper just to change the batteries every time for how often I played it. _________________ "I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall
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[zakuman]

Gah.... seriously, I'll give Nintendo a few brownie points here and there. But I think you guys are building Nintendo up to be better than it is. Eventhough the 64 had a better tech spec, I still find myself more impressed with my saturn than I was with my 64. I never said the 64's GPU was less powerful than the psx or the saturn though. So I don't see how I was wrong there.

Anyway Nintendo was dragging it's feet with the handhelds too. The lynx, the game gear, and the nomad all far surpassed nintendo's original game boy. And nintendo is left yet again in the dust by the overly expensive psp. (I got the DS instead... cause it was the more reasonable buy). Anyway, I'm just saying Nintendo does not have what it takes to stick with the industry.

Oh and one thing VR Jay forgot to mention about the xbox is it's excellent online service, and set-up. If anybody says microsoft only has good graphics and Halo... they're wrong. Xboxlive is probly one of the best things to come out of the fourth gen consoles.

Anyway this could go on for a long time. I don't hate nintendo... I just think you guys are giving it more credit than it deserves... cause if anything has been gradually slipping I think it's nintendo. I don't see the Revolution doing much. Nintendo is going to release it last, and you'll have to pay a some hefty bills to download the classic games. But hey, I can play those classics on my hacked xbox.

[Mountain_Dewroo]

Zaku, (I know it's a bit off topic,) Why don't you hang out in the other parts of the forum? :)

Anyway....


Zaku is right. Xbox like is good, But in my View, I think the PC is better.

[Stratadrake]

[quote]Anyway, I'm just saying Nintendo does not have what it takes to stick with the industry.[/quote]
I disagree. The N64 and GC have such small libraries compared to the PSX/PS2 primarily because it's the [b]third parties[/b] who kept choosing the PSX/PS2 over it. You know Nintendo has first party support like no other....

You might even say the industry does not have what Nintendo wants to keep up with, the two do not walk step in step with each other. Do they even need to?
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[VR_Jay]

In my opinion, there is no competition between Nintendo and Soney or Microsoft, because Nintendo is on a whole nother relm of existance here. What they do is so drastically different from everyone else. Conforming to the norm is just not in their vocabulary.

And Zakuman, as for the whole "Game Gear being better that Gamboy" thing, I have just one question for you: Which one is still around?
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[color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]

[Stratadrake]

The Game Gear died because of a few factors:

- Poor third-party support (compared to the existing Game Boy)
- No "killer app" (such as Tetris)
- Very short battery life (again, in comparison to the Game Boy)
- Various quality issues

Wikipedia article
"The [Game Gear] required [b]six AA batteries[/b], and the backlit screen consumed these in [b]three to five hours[/b]."
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[fallenangel]

I have a game gear on the top shelf of a closet somewhere at home. :P

I only got it so I could play it in the dark on road trips 'cause of the lit screen. Games sucked.
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[VR_Jay]

[quote="Stratadrake (Strata)"] Wikipedia article
"The [Game Gear] required [b]six AA batteries[/b], and the backlit screen consumed these in [b]three to five hours[/b]." [/quote]


Hell, I could tell you that without looking it up. Like fallen, I only had it for when it got too dark to play my Gamboy.
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[color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]

[fallenangel]

The rechargeable battery packs fixed the power issue, and they had a car adapter. Just more crap to buy, though.
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

[John]

People who show their PSP in public should get mugged...

[VR_Jay]

[quote="fallenangel (fallen)"] The rechargeable battery packs fixed the power issue, and they had a car adapter. Just more crap to buy, though. [/quote]
Which I didn't. I'm not sure if I saved money or not. ^_^
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[color=black]"Your toast is burnt and no amount of scraping will remove the black stuff!" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue[/color]

[fallenangel]

Depends on how often you played it. I was too young to remember how much my folks paid for 'em. Probably would have been cheaper just to change the batteries every time for how often I played it.
_________________
"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall