Photoshop Vs. Natural Talent

unfocused · Moderator Joined: 17 Jul 2004 Posts: 6983 Location: Texas

i remember the old thread, my veiws have changed a bit now that i have seen better cging and experimented a little more with it. But i still prefer traditional art.
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fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject:

I don't think the issue ever was whether one [i]is[/i] better than the other. It's that apparently too many people starting contests are easily impressed by bad CG work, thus making the judging unfair.

But considering polls are subject to favoritism, and no human decision is going to be completely objective, none of them are fair. So if you don't like someone's judging, don't enter any more of their contests. Problem solved.
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Asyona · Very bored Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 136

Judges are impressed by CG?!?! And you don't like it, eh?
Oh, it's very very simple. Just impress them by traditionals media.
Even in Africa bad artist is bad artist.
Don't forget, that every media is just tools...

rolla_roach · Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject:

I'm not saying people who use PhotoShop aren't artists or aren't as creative as traditional artists. I know CGing must be challenging and calls for a steady hand, as does traditional-style art. All I want to make clear is; it's still not fair because you're pitting a flawed human against a flawless computer. Now, some of you might say, "Well, a human is controlling the computer, making it fair." However, we're now dealing with the problem of 2 against 1. An artist and his pencil are no match for an artist and HIS machine.
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fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:

The only thing "flawless" about it is the fact you can get solid color. So? You can get solid color with paint or colored pencils or pastels, you just have to be skilled enough to do it. It's a matter of CHOOSING the tools that best suit what you do. If what you do calls for solid colors, maybe you should be working digitally.

But visible brush strokes or pencil lines can be as much a strength as a flaw.

If a person is impressed enough by solid digital color to choose a bad CG drawing over a skilled traditional one, that is their own problem and not something we can regulate. People should stop entering their contests if they don't like it.
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Yamikei · Very bored Joined: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 109

I think Photoshop takes just as much skill as drawing a picture. Photoshop fills the color, and theres more tools, but It takes talent to use the tools correctly.

Asyona · Very bored Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 136

Omg!

It seems that u haven't seen enough traditional artists, huh rolla_roach (Michel W.)?? Well, go on DA for example!
As for me I know at least two artists who are masters of pencil. And they wins almost in all competitions where CG pics. It's just depends on their experience!!

[quote]If a person is impressed enough by solid digital color to choose a bad CG drawing over a skilled traditional one, that is their own problem and not something we can regulate. People should stop entering their contests if they don't like it. [/quote]
Extremly agree.

sorry for my english

rolla_roach · Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:26 am Post subject:

Oh, I've seen 'em all. Pencil drawings, colored pencil, CG, and near 'round everything else. I myself am a pencil artist. I know how good (or bad) pencil can be.

Ya know, after all of this, I think I'd like to try PhotoShop or a similar program just to see if I'm any good at it. I do reasonably well with pencil, and I have a steady hand because I like to draw with MS Paint and, again, I do well at it. I'm going to test with Open Canvas to see if what you all say is true.

"Only a person who is already a traditional artist can have an eye for shading, lighting and details using CG."

I'll try!
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Gameglitch · Very bored Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 211

Umm here is an interesting thought what about people that do mixed media? They are nether true traditional or digital (Which I might fall in that category). I was originally 100% traditional, but over the years I have gotten use to using some digital applications for editing, modifying, enhancing my scanned drawings. I find that in digital art their is one key feature that everyone seems to have not mentioned and that is the save function. In digital art you can save your progress in steps; so if you make a critical error you can always go back to your last step. Where in traditional art if you make a big enough mistake you cant go back You are more then likely to start all over again So in that alone I think traditional art takes more skill then digital, as you got to be twice as careful to not make a mistake.

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:14 am Post subject:

And in digital you can save over your file or close without hitting save and lose your last 12 hours of work. It's all relative, and it all evens out. You can point out a hundred things that are simpler with traditional, and a hundred more that make digital simpler. They're just different but require the same skill for the same quality results.
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rolla_roach · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:59 am Post subject:

[quote="Gameglitch (Nathanael Polak)"] In digital art you can save your progress in steps; so if you make a critical error you can always go back to your last step. Where in traditional art if you make a big enough mistake you cant go back You are more then likely to start all over again So in that alone I think traditional art takes more skill then digital, as you got to be twice as careful to not make a mistake. [/quote]
Another excellent point. Traditional style takes more skill. Anyone can take a class on how to use PhotoShop (including a chimpanzee?),but it takes a special person to produce a high quality piece of artwork that you drew with your own two hands. Even if after you scan your finished pic and use some program to smooth everything out to a nice finish, the piece was still done by you. I dunno, I still think that somehow, PhotoShop isn't art.

I read in a college booklet that PhotoShop is NOT in the same catagory as Art. PhotoShop is a different class altogether. It's called "Computer/Web design". Art, according to this booklet, is Drawing, painting, acrylics, sculpturing, and anything else in which your hands are used to create. PhotoShop is NOT art. Check any college booklet or brochure.
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Brianhjh · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:

[quote="rolla_roach (Michel W.)"] Another excellent point. Traditional style takes more skill. Anyone can take a class on how to use PhotoShop (including a chimpanzee?),but it takes a special person to produce a high quality piece of artwork that you drew with your own two hands. Even if after you scan your finished pic and use some program to smooth everything out to a nice finish, the piece was still done by you. I dunno, I still think that somehow, PhotoShop isn't art.
[/quote]

:banghead:

You obviously have never tried Photoshop, I tried it and I can't get a handle on it, thus why my gallery is purely traditional.

[quote]
I read in a college booklet that PhotoShop is NOT in the same catagory as Art. PhotoShop is a different class altogether. It's called "Computer/Web design". Art, according to this booklet, is Drawing, painting, acrylics, sculpturing, and anything else in which your hands are used to create. PhotoShop is NOT art. Check any college booklet or brochure.[/quote]

Are you kidding me? the booklet probably meant that what photoshop was origianlly intended for weren't art. Photoshop was originally designed to MANIUPULATE PHOTOS IN WAYS IT CAN BE USED TO CREATE COMMERICIAL DESIGNS. You can argue that those are not art, but when you create a picture, digital painting with photoshop without maniuplating an already-existing photo, it is no doubt, art.

You know, you COULD stop pretending you know fully abou the two media. Rolling eyes

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Stratadrake · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:55 am Post subject:

[quote]what about people that do mixed media? They are nether true traditional or digital[/quote]

[quote]Art, according to this booklet, is Drawing, painting, acrylics, sculpturing, and anything else in which your hands are used to create. PhotoShop is NOT art. Check any college booklet or brochure.[/quote]
Colleges and universities define "Art" as [b]traditional art[/b] for sake of organizing college-level courses.

Here on the Internet, it's a different story.
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fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject:

You'll be hard pressed to find a college class on digital [i]painting[/i]. That is why they don't classify it as art, because it is the graphic design/marketing people who take the class to design packaging, movie posters, etc. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T use it to draw with, that's just not what they'll teach you. They'll teach you to manipulate photos, use layers, and color channels, and make posters.

You know what never looks good in an artist? Being a pretentious twat. Why don't you whip up some no-talent digital art to compare with Linda Bergkvist, hm? I mean, it's so obvious that the computer did her work for her, right? She doesn't spend 100s of hours meticulously DRAWING the pictures. So given ten minutes, you must be able to do the same thing.

You're confusing what you like to look at with what is talented. In some cases digital art is "easier", but only if they use shortcuts that barely count. Poser, for example, most people just arrange the default figures and export it as is. That's stupid and always looks bad. BUT, with post work in photoshop, painting over the technical limitations, fixing the lighting, and that "plastic" look, perfectly skilled and good art can come from even Poser.

How is digital "not art"? Because you can't touch it? Boo hoo, so anything you write on the computer doesn't count, you have to use a typewriter so you can touch the paper as you write a page? Just because it isn't tangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can print out a hard copy, and it's just as valid as anything else. Whether it's GOOD depends entirely on the artist, but don't try to argue the bullshit of it being "not art".

And, I might add, you picked a horrible example with photoshop because it IS made for altering photos and not art. Painter, PSP, OpenCanvas, Illustrator, GIMP, and all those ARE.
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Brianhjh · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject:

[quote="fallenangel (fallen)"]

And, I might add, you picked a horrible example with photoshop because it IS made for altering photos and not art. Painter, PSP, OpenCanvas, Illustrator, GIMP, and all those ARE. [/quote]

I could never understand why so many FAC people keep saying "zOMG! must get photoshop!!11one!!". It's not for drawing, other programs offer easier and more articulate interface for drawing and painting!

plus, it's ridiculously expensive if you buy the real thing.
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fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject:

'Cause adobe has good marketing. And it's a more common program to find because a ton of businesses have it installed on their computers for the graphics aspect, so people just assume.

And it has all those nice filters and smudge effects they can use, who doesn't want that? Rolling eyes

Most digital artists eventually move on to PSP, Painter, or OC. Photoshop works, it's just not as intuitive for art. Although the brush customizations when combined with a pressure sensitive tablet can come pretty close.
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Stratadrake · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:

G.I.M.P. = GNU Image Manipulation Program

So, [i]technically[/i], GIMP is designed for editing/altering photos too. Rolling eyes

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fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:

And your point of that, [i]technically[/i], was what? I've never seen GIMP referred to for anything besides a better replacement for PS for art. No one uses it for photos, because PS does that job better. GIMP is better for art [i]because[/i] it's more limited in the photo editing department.

But if you want to be [i]technical[/i], then PSP, Painter, OC, and Illustrator are designed for art. Wow, what a difference.

Smartass is not a good look for you.
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Brianhjh · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject:

Modfight makes me giddy. LOL

in addendum, I'd like to point out that I had a similar argument as the threadstarter (of this thread) at Gaia 3 years ago, I was wrong. . . . .

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Stratadrake · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject:

[b]QUOTE[/b] (fallenangel)

But if you want to be technical, then PSP, Painter, OC, and Illustrator are designed for art. Wow, what a difference.[/quote]
Well . . .
.
.
.
At least their name matches their intended use! :lol:

Aaaanyway...

[b]QUOTE[/b] (fallenangel)

You'll be hard pressed to find a college class on digital painting. That is why they don't classify it as art, because it is the graphic design/marketing people who take the class to design packaging, movie posters, etc.[/quote]
What fallen said. College courses are generally [b]career-oriented[/b], designed to teach you something you can use to make money from. Since a large career purpose for digital artwork is in graphic design, that's why they classify it as such.
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