Punk Rock

ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:03 am Post subject:

Who here honestly thinks Avril Lavigne, Good Charlotte, and other bands associated with black makeup are legitimate punk rock?

Before the fans of some of these bands respond, may I point out that punk falls under 2 basic categories: Punk and Grunge. Grunge is one of the best forms of punk because their stage performance is never really over exaggerated. Nirvana's would consist of either old clothes and awesome sound or dresses and sarcasm. Soundgarden was close to the same, but no dresses.

Nirvana will never be known as a poser for obvious reasons. Whoever thinks that their lyrics are bullshit, well, you're wrong.

Avril Lavigne. Makes me laugh. Anyone notice that she bagan to sing punk after the Nirvana Greatest Hits album was released? That's a major switch from country. She adopted black eyeliner, thinkin it made her look cool. Her lyrics are majorly exaggerated. Not punk, it's whining.

Good Charlotte............
Disgrace to punk, posers and true. "Lifestyles of the Rich and the Famous".... they [i]are[/i] the rich and the famous now. They've bullshitted their fans from day one.

There are the true punk bands: Sex Pistols, Nirvana, Soundgarden...
But now, punk is the most posed genre of all. Once incredibly kick ass, it's being used by little boys in make up thinking that if they look like they don't care, they're in.

Kurt Cobain didn't do that, and he didn't care. Anyone want to contradict that?

This may offend some people who are fans of these posers. Sorry.

Thank God, people haven't begun to pose metal and hard rock stars at this alarming rate.
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"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject:

Ok, how to explain this....

Avril, Good Charlotte, Blink 182... Those are pop. And before all the fans start getting their panties in a twist, let me say there is NOTHING wrong with being pop. A lot (and I mean a lot) of my favorite bands are pop. Pop is not bad, it's not evil, it's not some taboo thing that makes a band less "worthy". Pop is good. It means you can get into the song, it's catchy, you remember the hook.

Think about those three bands up there. They're all based on catchy hooks and melodies, and that's pop. You can hum an Avril Lavigne song. Pop is not just a genre on its own like Britney Spears and boybands. It's a description, a style of writing. Aerosmith, Motley Crue, they've all got tons of pop elements. Catchy riffs that get stuck in your head. There's nothing automatically wrong with being pop. Pop makes a band popular.

Now that that's out of the way, punk is not pop. Yes, there's punk pop like Samantha 7 that mixes the punk guitar and style with catchy melodies, but the origins of punk do not. Listen to The Sex Pistols or The Ramones. There's melodies, but they're far different from the polished hooks of modern MTV "punk" groups. And those hooks are what get them played on tv and the radio. They make great singles because people remember them. Not only the guitars but the singers, too. The punk pop singers remind me of boyband rejects. They couldn't do five part harmony, but they can carry a tune decent enough. Again, current "punk" bands are much more listener friendly and closer to pop.

My personal ideas aside about the quality of current "punk" bands (*cough*shit*cough*), fans at least have to realize they're completely pop. If you're going to like them, fine, but don't act like they're some kind of rebellious entity that's saying "damn the man" to pop music, because they're just pop music with a lip ring and chains. Realize what you like. You're liking something no different than a boyband or hair band or teenage girl group. As C.C. DeVille said "You'd be surprised, if I put an N'Sync song through a les paul and marshall, and...that could be Cheap Trick! I mean, it's the melody people like."

So current groups are not punk. Whether or not they're good bands...well you all know my opinions about that for a whole variety of reasons. Punk died as soon as it was put on MTV. It's one genre that just doesn't work when people start imitating it for popularity.
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ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure if Good Charlotte and Avril will be classified as pop. Both have defined themselves as punk, even if they're posers. Avril does have certain pop elements, but she's decidedly posing punk. She soaked up some Nirvana and tried to use the black eyeliner image. Good Charlotte has been classified as punk, but you can never really tell.
As far as I know, punk isn't dead, but MTV didn't help it at all.
Good point with the pop, but I was going by the genre these people claim to be a part of. I guess I can change that, thanks Fallen. Wink

If you took out the vocals and just had the bass, guitar, and drums, you would probably like the music more. The lyrics are supposed to be so depressing, but they just make me laugh. I bet that some of those people were very happy little kids. There are the exceptions, of course(Kurt Cobain, for example), but some of them seem to try too hard.
I don't intend to pose grunge, and that's why I have to wait to come up with the lyrics. Grand total of lyrics I've written? 3. I have to wait for some interesting stuff to happen. Not make it up on the spot. I don't want it to be depressing either. Just interesting and definately funny at some points. Gotta try and entertain, ya know. ^_^
This topic might be a very interesting one at that. Fallen has very well thought out responses. It's fun to read them, and respond.
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"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject:

See that's what I was saying, though. They can't be punk because they have too many pop elements (the style, not genre). Their genre, at best, is "pop punk". They can call themselves punk all they want, but put them up against Joey Ramone or Sid Vicious and there's no contest. They pose the attitude and idea, but they don't even really pose the music (properly). It's too pop.

Bubblegum pop (Spears, boybands, etc.) is the same thing without the guitars and decidedly less creativity. The pop punk lyrics may suck, but at least the artist (usually) wrote them. If an artist claims to have "co-written" a few songs on the album, 9 times outta 10 that means they sat down with a real songwriter and said "yeah, I like that" or "hey, go rhymes with show!".

Punk as a powerful force is dead. Sex Pistols, Ramones, etc. punk. There's still punk around, just as there's still a glam scene (Peppermint Creeps anyone?), still a New York club rock scene, but as far as it being as much of a subculture as it was then or Nirvana's beginning...

And I'm glad you write shit that's true. So many current pop punk acts, you can read their lyrics and know they're writing about something they feel is "punk", not something that happened to them. Not saying artists have to only write about things they personally know about, but at least make it believable. It's like on those Star Search type programs where little kids sing songs that were meant for chicks in their 20s. It just doesn't work. It looks stupid. And what happens when people don't write about subjects they're familiar with, it turns into BS cliches. How many songs are there that are just one big mallrat goth metaphor about dying flowers, tears of blood, and being a prisoner?

No matter what they claim to be, current MTV "punk" acts are 100% pop. Catchy hooks and melodies are pop, no matter how much you distort the guitar. Nothin' wrong with that. That's music. Whether or not they have any credibility as artists could be debated, but that's not the issue and would just turn into a flame war between the blind sheep fans that can't stand to see their favorite groups criticized. And that's sad in and of itself, because no one should be such a clueless fanatic that they can't admit when a band isn't as great as they think they are.
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ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject:

I think that people confuse regular pop with bubblegum pop. Maybe that's where the main misunderstanding is.
I believe Kurt saw it's demise. He wore a shirt with the words "Grunge is Dead" before he died. In a way, punk died when he did.
The Ramones were awesome. I liked them. First heard them on the National Lampoon's Vacation. "Blitzkrieg Bop", I think that's how you spell it.
Do you remember when Avril claimed to be the anti-Britney? Made me laugh. She's beginning to look like her a little.

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Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:21 pm Post subject:

Yeah, people definitely don't know how to distinguish between the style and the genre. Bubblegum pop as a genre is "bad". But something being pop...hell "pop music" isn't all New Kids On the Block, it's most of the artists that have ever had a hit. People mistake Bubblegum pop for "pop music". And that's annoying. They think that calling an artist like Good Charlotte pop means you're saying they're like the lip syncing little bubblegum pop puppets. And they're two completely different things. They share the pop style, sure, but not the genre.

I know, Avril's drifting away from her "punk"-ness with all these ballads and shit. But sappy teen ballads from a semi-attractive chick always sell. She's got a built in fanbase of mallrats now, and of course the general sentiment will be "aww, she was in so much pain...". Hey, if people can relate to that crap, all the power to 'em, but denying the plain and simple truth about what they are is silly. Y'all know I adore Poison (as if the 10 paragraph novel wasn't enough to show that), but I'll be the first to admit they're pop as fuck. They did start out more on the punk side, leaning towards the New York Dolls, but all the melodies C.C. wrote were completely pop. And they're not that talented. I know that. I won't try to defend Bret as the best singer in the world or Rikki as the most amazing drummer. They're average. Their songwriting is decent. But they're fun. I dig it. It's the blind fans in denial of [i]any[/i] genre I dislike. It doesn't matter what you listen to in the privacy of your own home, but at least admit when what you like isn't amazing.

THAT's another problem. People, especially kids, mistake what they like for talent. It's not. If I say "Good Charlotte have very poor musical skill", it's true. I'm sorry, but it is. If you like that, wonderful, I'm glad you like music and have something you can enjoy, but don't try to tell me they're better than Eddie Van Halen or Robert Plant, even if you don't like those guys.

I've forgotten the original topic. Oh right, punk... It'll be interesting if any fans of the pop punk kiddos work up the balls to post here. Hopefully, and I'm probably giving them too much credit, they'll at least be able to agree with what we've said. 'Cause it's very very true.
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject:

Ah, yes. We'll rip 'em to shreds, won't we? Wink

If you notice, Avril needs 2 guitarists, besides herself. One is just a pretty boy, the other is the only one who seems to work. Avril just sings. If she had talent, she'd drop either one or both and keep the bassist and the drummer. It causes me pain just to listen to her sing. Only reason I've heard her is because I watch those Late Night programs for the monologues and Saturday Night Live(which has gone to Hell).

When I get a few more members in my forum(If you'd like to join, click on the link in my signature), I'm sure this will come up and I will enjoy giving people Fallen's expert analysis of the subject. I'll give her due credit, of course.

The weird thing is, the type of punk they use is very much like country.
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Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:50 pm Post subject:

Woo, my expert opinion! What exactly is my title, anyway? Oh well.

Avril bothers me. More than Good Charlotte or Blink 182. I think it's because she's such an obvious label puppet... Most artists have to bend to their label at one point or another and do something they don't want to do, give up something they do want to do, compromise on some issue, but artists that are so obviously shaped entirely by the label to be sellable bug the hell out of me.

Another one that annoys me is Gwen Stefani. Not because of No Doubt being a bad band or anything like that. I don't care for 'em, but I don't think they're terrible. But her voice drives me crazy. Not so much on their studio work, but I saw some live footage on VH1 the other day and....either she has bad days, some really good days, or they heavily produce the studio tracks. Same with Evanescence. That chick doesn't pull off the live shit the same as on the studio mixes. And that's coming from Howard Stern who really liked the CD. I've never actually heard them live and don't care to.
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject:

If you join the forums, your title will be your choice. Wink

What bothers me is that someday, my kid might listen to the music we're discussing now and think it's worth imitating.

If he/she does, there will be MAJOR Hell to pay.
_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject:

Yet another reason for me to not have children. They may like...Britney. Surprised

I have enough trouble with my brother thinking classics like The Grateful Dead and Led Zep are stupid. He goes on and on about how terrible they are and "Green Day rules!!!!!", then refuses to admit that without The Dead or any of the others there would be no Green Day or Sum 41. What's wrong with kids today?
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject:

I dunno. Too busy tryin' to be the popular people.

That's what punk pop is. It's an attempt to be popular by looking different, thinking people will accept it as a new trend(unfortunately, a whole lot do).

_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject:

Yep. And really, this isn't the case every time of course, but punk pop is one of the easiest genres to be successful in. To be a teen pop star, you have to be able to sing (or just be really attractive). To be a proper rock star, you have to be skilled at an instrument or be a good writer. If you have to think about it, you can't be punk. But punk pop requires minimal skill (yay for 3 power chords) and a generic "punk rocker" look. A couple catchy melodies and not being too hideous, and you'll be on MTV in no time.

(Disclaimer: any criticism of punk pop does not apply to Samantha 7, who did it first and better. Razz

)
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject:

There is a difference between grunge and pop punk though. Grunge is more complicated because they use all kinds of chords(look at the tabs for Nirvana and Soundgarden). They don't really say, "f**k the world", they just kind of make fun of themselves.
Pop punk has the people who make fun of themselves when they're trying to be serious. Not Samantha 7, Fallen. They're awesome. Some of them just look so fuckin funny, it's hard to ever take them seriously.
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Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

ChrisFox · Has No Life Joined: 31 Dec 1969 Posts: 637

Bagpipes are punk rock.
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fallenangel · Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:07 pm Post subject:

[quote]Not Samantha 7, Fallen. They're awesome. Some of them just look so fuckin funny, it's hard to ever take them seriously. [/quote]

Hey now! Only on the album cover... And I have no excuse for that, uh, train wreck. No offense to him, it's just silly. They all look perfectly normal otherwise. Razz

As normal as they can look, anyway.

And yeah, there's definitely a difference between grunge and punk pop. Kurt obviously understood pop melodies, but there was enough "rawness" to it to not be very pop.
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

DaBear · Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:14 am Post subject:

wow I dont even know the bands youre talking about here. so they might be or may not be. but if you want to hear punk go get The Sex Pistols: Never Mind the Bullocks. thats punk. or The Ramones: Rocket to Russia. see to me if it dosent make you want to just haul off and belt the guy next to you....it aint punk!
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chux · Member Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

Ahh, but Green Day do rule!
Of course theyre just a new (well...) version of what was Punk in the 60s, 70s, but they do write their own stuff, and they do play their own instruments Very Happy

Thats ovbiously not what makes a good band, but they are talented and they...just are a good band!
Well, to me anyway. I like them

I hate Blink 182, Good Charlotte, and all of the other crap that 'the people' call Punk or Rock these days. Pop Punk, yes. Pop Rock, yes. But people shouldnt be able to get away with calling Avril the 'Punk Princess'! Not only does it sounds ridiculous (why would a punk want to be a princess?) but its just not true!

ragingflea002 · Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:46 am Post subject:

If Avril's a "princess", she's not rock. There's no authority in rock, and if there was, it would dismiss the point.

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Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."

fallenangel · Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject:

I have no comment on Green Day. Razz

I'm sure they do write their own stuff, and Avril probably writes, and Good Charlotte probably writes, which is why I differentiate between them and the regular pop genre that's formed from put together acts, pro songwriters, and bubblegum packaged looks that are easy for the teenybopper population to digest. Whether or not they're good writers could be debated, but that's not the point, either.
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"I care about people as much as I care about lawn furniture" - Dexter/Michael C. Hall

ragingflea002 · Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:20 am Post subject:

Yes, the differentiate from the teenybopper look, but, in turn, give themselves a "too desperate for attention" look. Avril had been playing Sheryl Crow until she donned the black eyeliner and decided to call herself "punk".
As for Good Charlotte, I find them to be in the same situation. They have to rely on looks, not music, to gain the attention the so richly don't deserve. They're no different than any teenager walking around in an amusement park with their hair spiked up to God wearing black clothes with so-called "bad-ass" jewelry.

_________________
Not all who wander are lost.
"The separation between spirit and logic is reasonable because spirit is defined by faith and logic forces others to think about what they have faith in."