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Are all your Base belong to us?
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Are all your Base belong to us? Reply with quote

Question: Should FAC allow submissions created based on material by another artist when the original artist has already given permission for it?

Material such as:
- Pixelart 'dolls' or bases, available in an artist's personal gallery or website
- "Coloring book" style drawings and lineart, available in an artist's personal gallery or website

Our current official policy is not well-defined on this matter, but in practice some submissions of these natures have been allowed while others have not.

Known arguments in favor:
  • Artists should be allowed to collaborate and work together when they want to, without interference from FAC staff.
  • FAC members have been known to post requests and contests for other users to color in a provided base.
  • FAC members -- including FAC staff members -- have occasionally worked with or used such material ourselves.
  • Recolors/etc. are not necessarily simple or easy, some artists have spent large amounts of time and effort when recoloring.

Known arguments against:
  • Not entirely one's own work; some artists put relatively little effort into recoloring, and the original artist's style still clearly dominates the piece.
  • Could be confused with copyrighted 'kits' or 'generators' (such as the South Park generator), where the piece is composed entirely of base material and the submitter is responsible only for picking and arranging the various elements together, and has done no other (actual) work.
  • FAC staff do not have the resources to investigate whether the submitter actually has permission to use the base material and/or under what terms. Especially true for "coloring-book" material on commercial sites, which may or may not give permission to re-upload the result elsewhere (i.e. some sites want recolors to be submitted back to their site only).

So what kind of rule should we have?

My suggested guidelines, please discuss:

1 - As the submitter, you are the one responsible for proving when you have permission to use original material (a "base") made by another artist.
  • Must name or link the artist who created the base material.
  • Must provide URL to the base material by the original artist.
  • Must provide some proof of having permission to re-use (unless it is already stated with the base material). E.g., leave a comment on the original material asking the owner for permission.

2 - FAC staff need to be able to verify the information you provide above:
  • Cannot accept submissions if they do not provide the above information, i.e. just naming the original artist is not enough.
  • Cannot accept material from websites that require registration in order to access the base material, must be publically available.

3 - This would not change or override other FAC practices or policies:
  • Cannot accept pieces made from popular website-based "kits" or "generators", such as the South Park or Gaia avvie generators -- these are still copyrighted and most simply do not give permission for re-use in the first place.
  • Cannot accept recolors from base material that would not itself be permitted on FAC. E.g: general photography subjects, videogame sprites, screenshots.

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Last edited by Stratadrake on Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Benk
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
Thank you.
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Papercut_Dragon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a screen cap of the original artist's permission - that way, if someone wanted to use artwork from a site that requires registration, they can still use it as long as they have documentation.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benk, refer to arguments in favor #3 and (especially) #2, collabs and recolors are already out there in FAC and it would be unfair to simply "delete all".

(I'm saying this as an artist who has both given permission for recolors, and having done a recolor myself.)
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Blade
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the terms you laid out sound fine to me. I think it's fair.
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cstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd really like to see more feedback on this.
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Trinity_Fire
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno, I think it's fine. I've seen plenty of instances of people using others' linearts to color, and honestly, it doesn't bother me as long as the other artist mentioned who the lineartist was or whatever. I'm not sure so much proof is required; maybe just a link to the artist's original pic is good enough. Really, I don't see it as too much of a problem, unless they just claim the complete pic. :/
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KeheiZero
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it could be ok for things like collaberations, just as long as the artist makes all the appropriate references and gives dues where required.
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London
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Collaborations yes, colouring yes, as long as credit/links are given.

I'm against allowing pixel dolls based on other people's bases, though. It lets people flood FAC with even more subpar artwork and since more than one person can use the same base, it's impossible to tell the difference between actual pixel dolls and KiSS (http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss/) screen shots. (All of the really great pixel doll artists use their own bases anyway, haha.)
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unfocused
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm against doll bases altogether. I didn't think the purpose of dolls was artistic value at all, but more of the satisfaction and enjoyment of putting something together. Such as a completed puzzle. But I really don't know, I see them all over member profiles so it's hard to even take this seriously.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't have time to completely read all of the origional proposal, but I really agree with those who don't think dolls should be allowed.
It's rediclous, there is no art talent truely involved in just throwing those things together.

However if they are an origional creation (bases drawn etc by the poster and everything), that is fine by me.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I really don't know, I see them all over member profiles so it's hard to even take this seriously.

You mean the Gaia avvies? Those will, of course, never be allowed.

Quote:
there is no art talent truely involved in just throwing those things together.

Debatable, there is not always a clear line between the two. On one hand there is the "dress up" variety where the original artist provides both the base and the elements to be added, and the other user is responsible only for selecting and arranging them (with no further work) -- essentially the same as a copyrighted character generator kit, except that all the material is made by an artist on the site.

But then there is also the case of bases where the original owner only provides the base itself, and it's the other users who must add additional detail to finish the piece. In this latter case, if the artist who finished it is nowhere near the skill of the artist who provided the base material, we can certainly say there was "little effort" involved because, when compared to the base-maker, the other artist simply has little to no effort to give in the first place.

One example that comes to my mind is this by someone on my dA Watchlist:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/57735645/
- Note that while the artist provides all the material necessary to "cut and paste" a result, it is still only basic lineart, and anyone wishing to produce a colored piece from it must, by definition, do additional work themselves beyond mere assembly.
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cstdenis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On one hand there is the "dress up" variety where the original artist provides both the base and the elements to be added, and the other user is responsible only for selecting and arranging them (with no further work)


Thats basically a kiss doll which I really don't think should ever qualify as a base on FAC since its pretty pointless. (Tho I don't think the person making the base posting it should be a problem).
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stratadrake wrote:

Quote:
there is no art talent truely involved in just throwing those things together.


On one hand there is the "dress up" variety where the original artist provides both the base and the elements to be added, and the other user is responsible only for selecting and arranging them (with no further work) -- essentially the same as a copyrighted character generator kit, except that all the material is made by an artist on the site.


Yes, that is what I was refering to with the previous comment.

Quote:


One example that comes to my mind is this by someone on my dA Watchlist:
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/57735645/
- Note that while the artist provides all the material necessary to "cut and paste" a result, it is still only basic lineart, and anyone wishing to produce a colored piece from it must, by definition, do additional work themselves beyond mere assembly.


And this, seems to be like coloring lineart with a bit of extra effort attached, because you have to assemble it. Which seems fair enough to post as long as it is credited.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staff members, also refer to submission #593932 for an example of something made from pixelart bases (in this case, http://daisykitten.net/ecandy/bases.html). The user complained about it being removed, and that's part of the reason for asking this question.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone is bothering to make clothes, they might as well learn to make the doll that goes with it.
I don't like the idea of people using already existing bases.

But dolls made completely by the creator should be fair, lineart assembled and colored with permission should be fair as well.

It just feels to me that with the bases, you're taking someone's art and just coloring on it, it's like someone taking one of my finished pics and coloring on it or adding different clothes. It just dosen't seem quite right...
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone creates a 'base' specifically for other users to use and expound upon, what makes that a 'finished work' where an inked lineart made for the same purpose is not?

It's like giving someone a bowl of vanilla ice cream and then saying they're not allowed to put their own toppings on it.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but you're not going to run around with the sundae and show it off to the world, they will eat it for their personal enjoyment, and no one else will really care about what they put on it, heck, they can do the same thing if they wanted to.

But one of the problems I see arising from this is people faving art because it looks pretty, even though it has very little origionality or possibly effort put into it. (I'm having a hard time conveying this in words)
but, well, take for example all the stupid pictures of inuyasha that get faved purely because they are inu yasha, not because they have redeeming value. While this is not the same thing, I can expect to see complaints about this later....and tell me if that didn't make sense.
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Stratadrake
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, "effort" is not a criterion we can really make a rule about.
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Blade
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stratadrake wrote:
Unfortunately, "effort" is not a criterion we can really make a rule about.

True, yet we shouldn't make excuses and allowances for a lack of it. As of now, since dolls are not allowed, the effort, or lack there of, is not a concern.
And how much truely good art do you expect to be made from doll bases? The same cannot be said about coloring other lineart.
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