Genre Rants

[Stratadrake]

Time for a rant. Today's subject? FPS.

[b]FPS Games And Why I Dislike Them (Because "Hate" Is Too Strong Of A Word)[/b]

Let's face it, they can't please everybody. And when it comes to the subject of shooter games, it's not the games, it's the genre, the design.

Phrased emphatically, the design principles of a "traditional" FPS just plain stink.

Don't believe me? Okay, let's talk.

[b]Tunnel Vision.[/b] It's true. Compared to over-the-shoulder and third-person games, FPS games have tunnel vision. You can only see straight ahead in about a 70-to-90 degree field of view. What happened to the peripheral vision? Last time I checked, my peripheral vision extends to about 90 degrees on each side. A typical FPS may try to compensate for this by stuffing a helmet on the main character, but that's little consolation. No hotkeys, no amount of stick or mouse sensitivity truly makes up for peripheral vision.

Now, granted, [i]this isn't their fault[/i]. It's because the display hardware is a flat panel, whereas peripheral vision is a panoramic affair. But personally, I find it limiting. Give me an over-the-shoulder camera anyday. Allow me the ability to see a scale foot or two to each side, to give me a wider view of the action while I concentrate on what's in the center.

[b]Tireless Arm Syndrome.[/b] In a traditional FPS, you see the action through the eyes or visor of the character. Starting with Wolfenstein 3D and onwards into modern day, this view is accompanied by the image of your weapon pointing forwards. Okay, it's better to point the weapon forwards than backwards, but how can your character simply run around with that gun pointing out at full arms-length? Doesn't their arm ever get TIRED?

I remember back in Spyro 3 (Year of the Dragon). Spyro was a 3D platformer game, but nonwithstanding that let's go on. One of the playable characters was Agent 9, a space monkey. As a tribute to shooter games, Agent 9 carries a laser gun in his right hand. And for whatever reason, he's always holding his right hand out at arm's length, pointing forwards, like the traditional FPS right-hand-arm-and-weapon. This may not be intentional, but I still consider it a jab at the FPS genre.

[b]Invisible Man Syndrome.[/b] A traditional FPS character is like a vampire but in reverse: you can only see him in mirrors or reflections. Why is the character's weapon-arm the only thing that [i]you[/i] yourself see? Why, when you look down at the ground, do you only see an empty shadow indicating where you are? Why does the character not have any feet? Why, in the traditional FPS, can you never see "yourself"?

[b]No Running In The Pool.[/b] FPS characters do not run. No, in the traditional FPS, your gait is limited to a walk (or fast-walk). How else can you still aim and shoot while moving? Honestly, running/sprinting is a full-body exercise, you can't aim a weapon while sprinting, much less aim precisely and reliably while shooting at enemies. The old "weapon-bobbing" effect just doesn't cut it.


The conclusion? No. It's too early to draw them.

I have more gripes, sure, but those are enough for now.

This isn't a complete picture. After all, what about genre-blending? What about developers who work on breaking these clichs?

Show me. Give me examples of where the FPS genre isn't completely stale from clichs such as these. Please?
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[SilentSoul92]

well, personally, I agree with you. And, I just don't like shooting games. Give me and RPG and you won't see me for the next 14 hours. ^^

[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

Hmmm...breaking these cliches would be a challenge. But every effort that will be put on them will surely pay off. Yes, I notice 'em in my brother's shooter games.

You're asking for examples? Don't know any. Sorry. Since I don't very much like shooters.

I'm instead into racing games. Gran Turismo is my thing. You can't bother me until I've finished all the license exams in gold.

^_^ Just like Rita here, who's into her RPGs.

ALthough we all share the same question. Yes, I agree, these things are really difficult to change.
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[Stratadrake]

[quote]these things are really difficult to change.[/quote]

For the most part, I disagree. IMO, it's not that they're difficult clichs to break (from a technical/development standpoint), it's that designers just don't think of breaking them.

I remember seeing a preview to an FPS game that, among other things, allows you to see your character (including such animations as eating a candy bar, or even puking -- um, yeah ), and I've heard of an FPS game where they considered the impracticality of running and shooting at the same time (resulting in almost no accuracy if you try to do that) .

Unfortunately, I can't name which games they were.
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[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

eeeehh....you're right. The truth is somewhat funny too.

The thing about the designers not wanting to break them. Do you think theyre gonna reserve the better features on future consoles? Or are they just lazy to change the numbers in their programming?

Tell me if I'm wrong.
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--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[Stratadrake]

No. I don't believe lazing about is the issue. More like they're too busy with other details to have somebody on staff to go "Where is your guy's feet?" or stuff like that.

I remember back in the days when I played Star Wars: Jedi Knight. It had a switchable first/third-person camera system. And you know what? I ALWAYS played the game in third-person (even though first-person was the default view when you started each level). You had to make some serious platform jumps in that game, and I simply [b]had to see[/b] what Katarn's feet were standing on in order to make those jumps. And let me tell you, with a little practice, I became practically a surgeon with the third-person aiming....
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[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

Uhh, Naska? I don't play shooter games. My brother does. And I barely notice the programming mistakes. Sorry. So, why don't you try being easy on us.

Wanna know the games I played?: Soul Calibur2, Tekken#, FF#, Legend of Legaia#, Suikoden#, StarWars:Jedi Power Battles, Dino Crisis2, etc.

I'm pretty much one of the gaming shrinks of my friends.

Wanna know more? You don't know me yet.
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--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[Stratadrake]

[quote]I'm pretty much one of the gaming shrinks of my friends.[/quote]

I sincerely doubt that :P

I also doubt I could be considered a gaming "shrink" either ;)

Hmm... what else was I going to say... Bah, I forget. I'll remember it next time, though.
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[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

Okay, that was my bad. I was a bit hot...sorry. And it was 4:00 in the morning here in the Philippines when I posted that. I was a bit sleepy and grumpy. Still, it was my fault.

forgive me*salutes*......awkward, yeah..............

*falls back too sleep*............grumble, grumble....I'll get you, Caleb....mumble........so sleepy....*snoooor*

.........you say in one of your posts you dont like shooters?(or was it another person?) Tell that to my brother and he'll freak at you..........good, he's sleeping...
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--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[Fayore]

I know enough about FPS games to know that I dislike them with a fiery passion. FPS games are one of those games with no point to it, just mindless destruction for your own entertainment. :/ Not only that, but I really hate games where you're given a limited view of the environment. I like to be able to use my peripheral vision and see the stuff directly beside me, thanks. And the fact that you can only see what's on your screen makes me feel "boxed in", if you know what I mean. ><

[quote]Agent 9 carries a laser gun in his right hand. And for whatever reason, he's always holding his right hand out at arm's length[/quote]

I remember that! It made me laugh, hard. He just looked so ridiculous...
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[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

games with no point? nah, I wouldnt say that.
_________________
--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[Stratadrake]

[quote]I really hate games where you're given a limited view of the environment. I like to be able to use my peripheral vision and see the stuff directly beside me, thanks. And the fact that you can only see what's on your screen makes me feel "boxed in", if you know what I mean.[/quote]

So true. Praise be to the 3rd-person "over-the-shoulder" cameras in shooter games, they aim like an FPS but you can see a wider view of the action....
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[Meredianna]

[quote="Stratadrake (Strata)"] Time for a rant.  Today's subject?  FPS.

[b]FPS Games And Why I Dislike Them (Because "Hate" Is Too Strong Of A Word)[/b]

Let's face it, they can't please everybody.  And when it comes to the subject of shooter games, it's not the games, it's the genre, the design.

Phrased emphatically, the design principles of a "traditional" FPS just plain stink.

Don't believe me?  Okay, let's talk.
[/quote]
Yea, FPS Games...are just [i]awful[/i].

[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

..............all of ya dislike shooters......I'm just gonna listen here.

Sorry, but I'm neutral about FPSs.
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--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[Stratadrake]

Actually, my arguments are directed solely towards FPS's, not "shooters" in general.
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[_matt_]

[b]Tunnel Vision. It's true. Compared to over-the-shoulder and third-person games, FPS games have tunnel vision. You can only see straight ahead in about a 70-to-90 degree field of view. What happened to the peripheral vision? Last time I checked, my peripheral vision extends to about 90 degrees on each side. A typical FPS may try to compensate for this by stuffing a helmet on the main character, but that's little consolation. No hotkeys, no amount of stick or mouse sensitivity truly makes up for peripheral vision.[/b]

Peripheral vision would be near-impossible to translate into a standard flatscreen monitor/television set. Generally people don't mind it so much since the action is always down enclosed tunnels and small rooms - everything you need to see you CAN see. I believe some years back some developers attempted in programming a peripheral vision-enabled FPS game. Unfortunately it just looked silly. The camera was just altered so that the edges were warped a bit, and it really distracted from the main view (aka "tunnel vision"). Thus it was trashed and never spoken of again. I think I can find a link if I can remember the name of the project or developer.

Peripheral vision isn't really needed in most modern FPS games anyway. I mean, that's why they give you a radar for crying out loud! Do you have a radar so you can see who's lurking behind a corner or ready to crack you in the back of the head with the blunk of their weapon? No? Well, that just sucks, now doesn't it? There's simply no need for periphreal vision. Besides, it takes less than a second to look left and right to see what's about to nab you.

If you're so paranoid about neo-realism, get eDimensional' 3D Vision System (3D Glasses) for your computer. It provides a 3D outlook to your games just like an IMAX movie does. Granted it doesn't work well with all games, but it's a cheery little novelty that'll get you through your peripheral vision woes.

[b]Tireless Arm Syndrome. In a traditional FPS, you see the action through the eyes or visor of the character. Starting with Wolfenstein 3D and onwards into modern day, this view is accompanied by the image of your weapon pointing forwards. Okay, it's better to point the weapon forwards than backwards, but how can your character simply run around with that gun pointing out at full arms-length? Doesn't their arm ever get TIRED?[/b]

Granted that in most FPS games you're thwarting minions of Hell, blowing up alien invaders or dispensing of canabalistic robots, what's the point of factoring this in? I think it would be more of a liability to have this feature implimented than not. I mean, what's more fun than walking down a corridor only to have a demon eat your head off because you were "resting" your arm? The reason FPS's are so popular with a mass of people is because the formula WORKS. Don't fix what ain't broke. ;)

Again, this is this just some super-realism fetish you have? I mean, games aren't supposed to be super-realistic-so-as-they-blow-your-mind-into-oblivion. Why not mention when you get shot you don't die right away? I mean, in real life if I shot you with a shotgun, you'd probably be dead rather than still have four bars of health.

[b]Invisible Man Syndrome. A traditional FPS character is like a vampire but in reverse: you can only see him in mirrors or reflections. Why is the character's weapon-arm the only thing that you yourself see? Why, when you look down at the ground, do you only see an empty shadow indicating where you are? Why does the character not have any feet? Why, in the traditional FPS, can you never see "yourself"?[/b]

You're thinking on technical matters. Some games do allow you to see yourself when you look down. Halo and America's Army I believe allow you to see your legs (or part of them). Then again it's NOT NECESSARY. I mean, what part of the gameplay would this enhance? What part of the killing would this enhance? "Ok, I just shot 50 guys with my BFG, let me check on good my good ol' legs. Yup, still there." I can't think of a signle senario where you'd need to look at your legs in an FPS.

Think of the first-person perspective as the camera. Well, that's what it is. Think about a time in any platformer of RTS or whatever game where you've accidentally passed through an object or character. Like the object was a mere hologram and you went "woosh" right through it. That's pretty much what's being applied here, you can't see your legs or body because the camera is passing through it.

Now let's talk about this on a character model viewpoint aswell. You said the camera is strictly "tunnel-vision," correct? That's true. But when you say, "When I look down I can see my legs and body etc. etc. Well, that's true if you just look down with your head. If you notice, your neck moves at more of an arc as it lowers. The camera doesn't move that way. If you've ever looked at another player when he looks down in a FPS game, the entire body from the waist is extended. Now try this with tunnel vision. You can't really see your legs, and maybe a glimse of your feet. Try it for yourself. Apply tunnel vision and just bend down (don't move your neck or eyes) and look. Tada! Life is like a videogame!

[b]No Running In The Pool. FPS characters do not run. No, in the traditional FPS, your gait is limited to a walk (or fast-walk). How else can you still aim and shoot while moving? Honestly, running/sprinting is a full-body exercise, you can't aim a weapon while sprinting, much less aim precisely and reliably while shooting at enemies. The old "weapon-bobbing" effect just doesn't cut it.[/b]

I don't know what crappy FPS games you've been playing, but in nearly every modern FPS you can run/sprint. And in nearly every FPS game that you can run/sprint, your accuracy is affected majorly by increasing the shot recticle or not allowing you to shoot at all. Goldeneye: Rogue Agent and Ghost Recon are both good examples of running affecting your gameplay. Hell, in America's Army if your gun is dropped when you begin to run.

So yeah, I don't know what crapy FPS games you all have been playing, but Halo isn't the ONLY FPS game out there.

[b]This isn't a complete picture. After all, what about genre-blending? What about developers who work on breaking these clichs?[/b]

Zelda OoT used an FPS perspective for looking around and aiming with certain weapons (hookshot, bow, slingshot etc.) and Mario 64 used a FPS camera aswell. All worked astoundingly well, but they're FPS mechanics... So does that mean those games are all crap too?

Many games impliment 3rd person and first person mechanics just to please everyone. Morrowind is a great example. Same with nearly every MMORPG, they all feature first and third person perspectives. They all work fine in their own rights when it comes to spell casting, bow wielding and sword hacking.

[b]Show me. Give me examples of where the FPS genre isn't completely stale from clichs such as these. Please?[/b]

If you want a good FPS game that is derritive of most complaints of FPS crap, check out "Brothers in Arms." It's a mix between strategy and FPS mechanics. You control two squads with the right button and you control yourself (throught the first person perspective) along with them. It may be a bit difficult for your standards seeing as there's no aiming recticle. I know aiming must be hard for you since you tend to stare at your feet a lot. ;)

But it's a fun game. WWII-based, very realistic, new concepts and very realistic. I know how you like realistic games...

[Meredianna]

[quote="JINTEIthe76thKAISER (RJ Balbuena"] ..............all of ya dislike shooters......I'm just gonna listen here.

Sorry, but I'm neutral about FPSs. [/quote]
I dont dislike them.

[Stratadrake]

Well met, matt. (applauds slowly)

I see your responses boil down into two basic categories:

[i]1 - "your claim is outdated".[/i]
Perhaps; I actually have been a bit estranged from FPS games, mostly but not completely by choice.

[i]2 - "your claim is moot".[/i]
That, we can debate. :P

Now, regarding peripheral vision: It's a bit of a "duh" that you can't display a panoramic scene on a flat display panel. Conversely, you can't display a flat scene on a panoramic display panel, either. That's why you never see IMAX movies in normal theaters, or normal movies in IMAX theaters, because the scenes have to be shot in different perspectives and if you display one on the other, it doesn't work. For a panoramic display to work, the scene has to be rendered [i]and[/i] shown panoramically. Not one or the other, both or don't bother trying.

VR headsets aren't the same, either, for it's still a flat-panel display, you just have two of them which produces parallax and, hence, depth perception.

Is that why VR headsets aren't widely successful? I haven't seen any in years.

I've also heard about the "America's Army" game....
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[JINTEIthe76thKAISER]

..............no comment......
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--Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas. But of a humble heart, the Lord wil not scorn, and from its abundance the mouth speaks.

--People don't mean to kill each other. It happens because they are poor or desperate or really thirsty or in need of a vacation or something.

[_matt_]

VR headsets aren't successful because they're really more trouble than their worth. I'm not a big fan of IMAX either for that matter. Playing a game with 3D glasses on is just like putting sunglasses on while playing. And durring games where you need as much light as possible (a la Doom 3), it's nice NOT to play with a side helping of dark.

Your views are indeed outdated, like way back to the late 90's. FPS gaming has evolved a long way since the old 2D PC games, but the gameplay all pretty much has stayed the same. I mean, if you played the classic Doom way back in '93 and loathed it, chances are you're probably going to think the same with Doom 3. The only difference is that you can actually look around (up, down etc.) and the graphics are only really, really freakin' good. But by no means am I trying to change your mind about FPS games.

One thing good about FPS games that veterans would talk about constantly is the narritive. FPS games provide pretty much the single most solid and involving narritives than any other genre. Sure RPG's have deep, complex characters and plots, but they can't compare to actually experiencing first hand a beheamoth blasting through a wall right infront of you, seeing as your fellow marines get mowed down by alien forces or the intense enclosed corridor gunfights against opposing forces. You don't really get the feel of being "involved" in every action and every decision. Platformers on the other hand are fun and witty, but after a while catching monkies or solving the same puzzles but with different variables can get tiresome.

FPS games have gone a long way from just "blowing crap up," it really took a turn with Half-Life (I'm sure you all have heard about this magical game). Sure blowing up an enemy tank with an explosive is wickedly satisfying, but FPS games really have earned their right through the story-telling element.

Another thing that makes FPS games really superior to most genres is the multiplayer component. Perhaps multiplayer isn't all too gratifying to certain people, but most others enjoy the thrill of beating your fellow compadre into a bubbling pulp. Other genres really don't emphasize the multiplayer componet. RPG's simply have a non-existant multiplayer component, and their simply not as gratifying as actually beating your oppoent first hand instead of ordering someone else to do it. RPG multiplayer (head-to-head battles) really boil down to who has the higher level/better stuff anyway. Platformers too have a mildly weak multiplayer. Some platformers have pretty much the best multiplayer I've ever seen, while others are laughably weak. Super Smash Bros. for example is a game that has a totally insane, fun multiplayer.

I suppose if you're the more violent hands-on type of person who likes shooting/killing stuff first hand, you'd lean more to FPS games. However if you have patience, like really involving stories and can read like, really fast, you'd lean more to the RPG genre. If you like games where you don't really have to think as much but enjoy the challenge of puzzles and exploring wide enviornments, you'd of course lean towards platformers.

Really I don't know how to end this, so I'll just talk about AA. So Strata, did you like the concept of the game at all? I mean, it's like super-realistic and you really have this thing about realism. I mean, it's surely a tough-as-nails type game (more of memorization of maps and implementing assault tactics that WON'T get you shot), but most FPS vetrans tend to stray away from it. What did you think about it?